Interview with the president for Hungary of the World Institute of Scientology Enterprises
Scientologist businesspeople only conceal their allegiance to protect themselves from attacks, according to Imre Toth, the 50-year-old president of WISE, the umbrella group for Scientology-inspired businesses at its Vienna conference.
HVG: Yours has often been described as an association that poses a national security threat. It is said that your tentacles reach into the Hungarian government. Wouldn't it be better to publish a list of your association's members?
I.T.: The moment members of other churches publish their economic and other interests,we will do the same. Until then, we have a right to enjoy the same constitutional right to freedom of religion. As to your other question, if we had people in government, then it would certainly be noticeable, because wise decisions would be taken, the economy would be stronger, and the popular mood would be better.
HVG: Is it true that Scientologist businesspeople help each other to get on and that WISE is itself an organisation to foster such mutual help.
I.T.: It's well known that those of Jewish persuasion - and I could even mention the case of the Catholics - maintain clubs and organisations to promote important moral and religious values, and their members help each others. I don't see a problem with that. Nor do I if the Scientologists do the same. But to avoid all misunderstanding: not all members of the World Institution of Scientology Enterprises are Scientologists. We offer them the corporate management technology developed by L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of our religion, and anyone can use this without any ideological motivation to make his or her company more profitable.
HVG: Others say this is just a money-generating enterprise in religious clothing.
I.T.: It was to divide these two areas that we established WISE. We secularised our course materials, so they contain no ideological material. We don't ask WISE members about their religious affiliation, and you don't need to be a member of the church to join the institution. There are only two points that are linked to the religion. WISE members have to defend the church from rumours, and they cannot use the organisation for commercial ends. We aren't hiding the fact that we want to promote those moral values in economic life that our founder laid down. These rules are: honest business practices, proper commercial behaviour, contract discipline and respect for the law. These are all the kinds of virtues that the whole of Hungarian society needs.
HVG: If you are so clean, then you have nothing to hide. So how do you explain the attacks you receive? The revelation that a company belonging to the wife of the mayor of Budakalasz had links with Scientology was enough for people to want to get rid of him.
I.T.: Society needs its bogeymen, and there are people who want us to fill that role. The Budakalasz case shows it's not about Scientology, but the purposes people want to use it for. For example, they want to use it to get rid of a freely elected official without waiting for the next elections.
HVG: What are you offering to make entrepreneurs want to buy your materials - for a lot of money, we imagine - so convinced are they that it will lead to business success?
I.T.: Our courses cost no more than the consultancy courses offered elsewhere in this market segment. We are different because we offer more effective advice.
HVG: Could you list a tool or method that makes people think they'll be more successful than others? It's said that if there is a notice with the company's hierarchy in the reception, that can be a sign of Scientology connections. Why is that necessary, for example?
I.T.: The organisational chart is necessary for everyone to know exactly what relationship he stands in relative to everyone else. This makes the lines of responsibility clearer. But there are some 30 other tools: we make sure that colleagues communicate with each other in writing, because that promotes effectiveness.
HVG: Statistics play an important role for you. In one of his accounts, Hubbard writes that his employees performed so well in one category, that the "line on the chart rose on to the wall, across the ceiling and down on the other side." That's familiar to us from performance statistics in planned economies...
I.T.: Everything can be distorted, but we are talking here about a serious, scientifically validated method, one of whose elements is statistical in nature. I can't go into details here, but it's enough to say that Hubbard's technology extends over thousands of pages. And I can say that I am one of the 50,000 people who have attended these courses in Hungary alone, and that 80-90 per cent of them were able to make their companies more successful in short order. But I could mention Slovakia, where we have created 11,000 new jobs in recent years.
HVG: But Jorgos Travel, which went bust a few years ago, also had the assistance of Scientologists. So success is not guaranteed?
I.T.: That's just black propaganda used against us. We never had a direct link with Jorgos. The person helping had no official relationship with us, so we can't take responsibility for him. Of course there is no guarantee that a company that uses our methods will survive. But if you get into a Mercedes and drive it into a wall, nobody will say it was a bad car. We can help the kinds of companies that have already got somewhere, but who need help to go further.
HVG: Hungarian companies that join WISE are also directed by the centre in Los Angeles. Does this mean that in certain WISE can request favours from these companies?
I.T.: To the extent that the Pope can ask something of his followers. And then they either do as he says or they don't.
HVG: And can we take a look at the accounts of member companies? A few years ago, there were suggestions that Scientologists had got a footing inside Giro Rt, which deals with bank transfers, giving them a view of important financial transactions.
I.T.: These are false accusations, spread by people who really do want a look at other people's commercial secrets. It's such a closed system that I can't imagine we'd be able to take a look inside. And we're not interested, either.
HVG: It is well known that Scientologists are opposed to psychiatry. It's said that some of your companies have looked at old hospital buildings. Are you trying to gain a strategically important foothold inside the healthcare sector?
I.T.: In healthcare? And why would we do that? This is an area in crisis. Although things would certainly improve if they used our methods.
HVG: So there is no Scientology pressure.
I.T.: We are on the offensive because that problem is urgent - the house is on fire. But we're still staying within certain limits. You can recognise a Scientologist businessperson because he doesn't ignore problems, but solves them. In that sense, we could probably market ourselves better. Because of the attacks, plenty of people are awkward about telling the public that they use our methods, because they don't want to become the target of malicious attacks.
JÁNOS DOBSZAY / VIENNA
I.T.: The moment members of other churches publish their economic and other interests,we will do the same. Until then, we have a right to enjoy the same constitutional right to freedom of religion. As to your other question, if we had people in government, then it would certainly be noticeable, because wise decisions would be taken, the economy would be stronger, and the popular mood would be better.
HVG: Is it true that Scientologist businesspeople help each other to get on and that WISE is itself an organisation to foster such mutual help.
I.T.: It's well known that those of Jewish persuasion - and I could even mention the case of the Catholics - maintain clubs and organisations to promote important moral and religious values, and their members help each others. I don't see a problem with that. Nor do I if the Scientologists do the same. But to avoid all misunderstanding: not all members of the World Institution of Scientology Enterprises are Scientologists. We offer them the corporate management technology developed by L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of our religion, and anyone can use this without any ideological motivation to make his or her company more profitable.
HVG: Others say this is just a money-generating enterprise in religious clothing.
I.T.: It was to divide these two areas that we established WISE. We secularised our course materials, so they contain no ideological material. We don't ask WISE members about their religious affiliation, and you don't need to be a member of the church to join the institution. There are only two points that are linked to the religion. WISE members have to defend the church from rumours, and they cannot use the organisation for commercial ends. We aren't hiding the fact that we want to promote those moral values in economic life that our founder laid down. These rules are: honest business practices, proper commercial behaviour, contract discipline and respect for the law. These are all the kinds of virtues that the whole of Hungarian society needs.
HVG: If you are so clean, then you have nothing to hide. So how do you explain the attacks you receive? The revelation that a company belonging to the wife of the mayor of Budakalasz had links with Scientology was enough for people to want to get rid of him.
I.T.: Society needs its bogeymen, and there are people who want us to fill that role. The Budakalasz case shows it's not about Scientology, but the purposes people want to use it for. For example, they want to use it to get rid of a freely elected official without waiting for the next elections.
HVG: What are you offering to make entrepreneurs want to buy your materials - for a lot of money, we imagine - so convinced are they that it will lead to business success?
I.T.: Our courses cost no more than the consultancy courses offered elsewhere in this market segment. We are different because we offer more effective advice.
Second page of the interview (Oldaltörés)
HVG: Could you list a tool or method that makes people think they'll be more successful than others? It's said that if there is a notice with the company's hierarchy in the reception, that can be a sign of Scientology connections. Why is that necessary, for example?
Imre Toth, president of WISE © Dobszay János |
HVG: Statistics play an important role for you. In one of his accounts, Hubbard writes that his employees performed so well in one category, that the "line on the chart rose on to the wall, across the ceiling and down on the other side." That's familiar to us from performance statistics in planned economies...
I.T.: Everything can be distorted, but we are talking here about a serious, scientifically validated method, one of whose elements is statistical in nature. I can't go into details here, but it's enough to say that Hubbard's technology extends over thousands of pages. And I can say that I am one of the 50,000 people who have attended these courses in Hungary alone, and that 80-90 per cent of them were able to make their companies more successful in short order. But I could mention Slovakia, where we have created 11,000 new jobs in recent years.
HVG: But Jorgos Travel, which went bust a few years ago, also had the assistance of Scientologists. So success is not guaranteed?
I.T.: That's just black propaganda used against us. We never had a direct link with Jorgos. The person helping had no official relationship with us, so we can't take responsibility for him. Of course there is no guarantee that a company that uses our methods will survive. But if you get into a Mercedes and drive it into a wall, nobody will say it was a bad car. We can help the kinds of companies that have already got somewhere, but who need help to go further.
HVG: Hungarian companies that join WISE are also directed by the centre in Los Angeles. Does this mean that in certain WISE can request favours from these companies?
I.T.: To the extent that the Pope can ask something of his followers. And then they either do as he says or they don't.
HVG: And can we take a look at the accounts of member companies? A few years ago, there were suggestions that Scientologists had got a footing inside Giro Rt, which deals with bank transfers, giving them a view of important financial transactions.
I.T.: These are false accusations, spread by people who really do want a look at other people's commercial secrets. It's such a closed system that I can't imagine we'd be able to take a look inside. And we're not interested, either.
HVG: It is well known that Scientologists are opposed to psychiatry. It's said that some of your companies have looked at old hospital buildings. Are you trying to gain a strategically important foothold inside the healthcare sector?
I.T.: In healthcare? And why would we do that? This is an area in crisis. Although things would certainly improve if they used our methods.
HVG: So there is no Scientology pressure.
I.T.: We are on the offensive because that problem is urgent - the house is on fire. But we're still staying within certain limits. You can recognise a Scientologist businessperson because he doesn't ignore problems, but solves them. In that sense, we could probably market ourselves better. Because of the attacks, plenty of people are awkward about telling the public that they use our methods, because they don't want to become the target of malicious attacks.
JÁNOS DOBSZAY / VIENNA
